What's the history of jokers and flowers?
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 12:59:34 PM EDT, judy h wrote:
My mah-jongg question or comment is:
Hello Tom,
I am trying to find the history of jokers and flowers. I am sure I have seen this on your site but I can’t seem to find it now.
I have been playing since age 5 or 6 and am now 80 so have seen many changes. I remember when each player started with two flowers (we called them pretties) and it was forbidden to pass or discard them. Do you have a timeframe for this?
What would be involved in having search capability added to your site? I would be willing to partially fund it.
Judy
Sent from my iPad
Hi, Judy! Flower tiles were part of the mah-jongg set early on. In the early 1870s, the "Glover set" described in FAQ 11-E, did not have eight flowers.
There were four seasons, shown here in octagonal frames. (Today, American players call the seasons "flowers.") The mah-jongg set at that time didn't have green dragons, either. And there were other tiles not included in today's mah-jongg set (see FAQ 11-E).
By 1890, the set had the three dragons, and 16 flowers/seasons:
For more of the fascinating history of the mah-jongg tile set, see Michael Stanwick's website, themahjongtileset.co.uk.
By 1920 when J.P. Babcock introduced mah-jongg to the United States, the set had eight flowers.
So that's the early history of flowers. Now, jokers.
I have in my collection some bone-and-bamboo sets (made in China) that contain two joker tiles. I don't know when those sets were manufactured, sadly. Could have been the 1930s.
It's not until 1960 that the National Mah Jongg League required jokers. This chart is from column 509:
NMJL Card |
Flowers/Jokers |
1937-1942 |
8F |
1943 |
12F |
1944-45 |
14F |
1946 |
16F |
1947-48 |
18F |
1949 |
20F |
1950-55 |
24F |
1956-57 |
22F |
1958-60 |
20F |
1960-62 |
14F/2J |
1962-66 |
12F/4J |
1966-67 |
8F/6J |
1967-68 |
10F/6J |
1968-71 |
6F/8J |
1971-Present |
8F/8J |
You asked when it became permissible to pass flowers and discard them. I have done an analysis from my collection of NMJL cards, but my card collection is not complete. A date that I list here might not be the earliest date a rule was set or changed.
1938: Flowers are wild.
1943: A flower may never be discarded.
1953: Each player begins with 2 flowers.
1954: It's permissible to discard flowers.
1958: Flowers may not be passed in the Charleston.
1959: Flowers may be passed.
1960: 2 jokers introduced. Flowers are no longer wild.
1962: Jokers may be discarded. It's permissible to expose flowers in a Concealed hand.
1963: Jokers may be redeemed from atop one's own rack only.
1964: Jokers may be redeemed from anyone's rack.
1965: Jokers may be discarded only when "dogging." Jokers may never be passed in the Charleston.
1967: Jokers may be discarded anytime.
1984: Jokers forbidden in singles and pairs.
You asked how much it would cost to add a site-specific Search function: I don't know. Please understand that this site is not a thriving business; the ads and donations pay for the webhosting, but not for all the time I put into answering people's questions. I'm sorry it's challenging to locate information on this sprawling huge ocean of information, but this is not a business that can support the cost of redesign or features like a site-specific Search function, a mailing list, and other things that moneymaking sites provide.
I don't always remember the precise location of everything on the site myself, but I find that I can always locate the information by using Google. For example, I might use the search string "flowers/jokers sloperama.com" - if that doesn't work, then I modify the search string - but I always include "sloperama" in the search string so Google will find it on my site.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 17, 2023
Donations appreciated
8/19/23: The joker rules timeline has been edited to include additional joker rules.
I devised a table rotation, part 2
On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 09:51:28 PM EDT, betsy n wrote:
Re: Mah-Jongg Q+A
Hi Tom..... my name is Bettyann... (betsy is my email) To clarify...There are any number of ways to do it. You can use colored chips...any kind and red is at one table blue at another yellow,....and so in.
I have used plastic hippy hanging room divider pieces (I cut apart) I'd numbered. Today i used mini clothes pins (for hanging xmas cards) I numbered each one 1-12 and after each round (4 games) we all chose another clothes pin from the bowl....bag...box..... shrug. LOL
works like a charm. Sometimes a person can pull the same number they just had, then I give them the option to change their selection or stay pat.
Inline image Inline image I can write numbers on anything that happens to be around.... as long as I have enough of them.
Bettyann S
.• * *~:
'The happiest of people don't necessarily
have the best of everything;
They just make the most of everything they have!
Thanks for the comeback, Bettyann. I understood that anything numbered could be used (could be slips of paper) but I was just curious what you meant by "chips," and what you used usually. Anyhoo, the random method is fine by me. A lot of game hosts want a scientific or mathematical (non-random) method, but I'm with you.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 16, 2023
Donations appreciated
Bouquets on the 1960 card
On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 01:30:46 PM EDT, Laura B wrote:
NMJL query ... bouquet hands
Tom,
I don't know if this is still your address.
I have a 1960-61 card And it talks about bouquet hands and non bouquet hands.
I always thought the bouquet in Chinese mahjong meant that you had All 4 of the flowers or all 4 of the seasons.
This American card looks as though the non bouquet hands are the quint hands. And all of the other hands are called bouquet hands, whether they have two flowers or four or five or six or even no flowers.
I find that confusing to call a hand with no flowers a bouquet hand.
So I was wondering if you knew anything about this term in the American game back in this year. And I don't know if you have a copy of that card and if you don't, I can certainly take a picture and send it to you.
I bought it from Johni Levene for $25. So I'm not interested in having the picture posted anywhere for free.
It has 14 flowers and 2 jokers that year and you can use flowers as if they were jokers for some of the hands. The two jokers can be used to replace tiles in a bouquet hand or a non bouquet hand. They can be used in a kong. The two jokers which they are calling the big jokers, or flowers, can be used to replace tiles in quints.
Then there is a particular hand in The Quint group. Where it says in this hand only flowers or big jokers may replace any number tile. But it doesn't say it can't be used in a pair or a single. And on the back of the card, it says that the big jokers can replace any tile in any hand for anything. It was on the other side of the card where it had a restriction about kongs.
So I'm just finding these instructions and comments very confusing as to when you can use a joker or a flower as if it were a joker.
And what the term bouquet means.
Please confirm that this is your email address by replying and then I can send you back the pictures in a reply. I don't want to send the pictures now until I know. This is really your address.
Laura B
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
Hi, Laura! The ladies of the National Mah Jongg League were under no obligation to use the term "bouquet" the same way it was used in Asian variants. I do not have the 1960-61 card in my collection. I do have the 1962-63 card, but could not find the term "bouquet" on it anywhere. And I don't have a card from 1959, either.
I am sending you a reply email to let you know the answer is posted here. But don't send me a picture I can't post here. I would NOT post full scans of any NMJL card in any case. But I might want to post pertinent parts.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 16, 2023
Donations appreciated
I devised a table rotation
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 11:29:01 PM EDT, betsy n wrote:
My mah-jongg question or comment is:
Sent from Mail for Windows
Hi Tom, I devised a table rotation which works for 2 and 3 tables. We haven’t tried it yet with a 4th table.
The director (me) reaches into a bag, with the same number of chips numbered to the number of players,……
After 4 games, I reach into the bag and hand out the chips randomly, not looking at them. Sometimes, if my group is adept and paying attention, I spill the chips into a bowl and let them pick (without looking) for themselves.
Whichever creates the least confusion, and is most orderly…..and expeditious. LOL
Either way…everyone moves……. Time to grab a chip, cookie to run to the potty…..between rounds.
Thanks
THE Bettyann
Now I don't know whether to call you betsy or Bettyann! Anyway, hi!
These chips, am I to understand they're the colored coins with the hole in the middle?
And you wrote numbers on them with a marker? I presume numbers 1-4 correspond to seats at table 1, and so on. I'll add this to FAQ 27. The world needs more simple solutions to these thorny problems!
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 16, 2023
Donations appreciated
Where is your article on the origin of the white dragon?
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 04:07:10 AM EDT, Stephanie B wrote:
My mah-jongg question or comment is:
Dear Sloper:
Aloha From Hawaii Island.
I just read a post on FB regarding an article on the origin of the white dragon and why it is so named, it was from you. I tried to copy it but no luck. I spent time looking for it on your website yet failed. It was extremely interesting and I feel compelled to share it with my MJ group. As the ‘Kapuna’, (teacher) of our group it is important for me to keep us aware of rules as they change and the interesting facts about the history of the game.
When I started the group we learned on my vintage Chinese sets and since many of our group have become avid collectors of bovine and bamboo tile sets. We play weekly with our vintage sets, playing American Mah Jong by NMJL rules. I made sure all have your book, a requirement. Hence my interest in the history of the White Dragon.
If you ever come to Hawaii Island we all have Hawaiian Hales (Guest Houses) would LOVE yet FEAR to host you???
Mahalo,
Stephanie
"If you have a garden and a library
you have everything you need"- Cicero
Stephanie N B
Sent from my iPad
A generous offer, Stephanie! I answered the most frequently asked questions about white dragons and other "tile mysteries" in FAQ 7-E (the "Mystery Tiles" FAQ). Actually I wrote about white dragons in two places in the FAQ:
here ("What does the B or P stand for?"),
and
here ("What is the deal with these blank tiles?").
Aloha!
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 15, 2023
Donations appreciated
What's the penalty, part 2
Re: Penalty
On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 07:52:04 PM EDT, Deborah C wrote:
Thanks for the info.
You're welcome, Deborah!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom
Would like to find the 1954 rules
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 04:43:21 PM EDT, Thomas L wrote:
I just found a NML card from 1954 and would like to find the rules for the game during that time period. What a difference (I guess!) ??
Thanks.
Sent from my iPad
Hi, Thomas!
If you want more than just what's printed on that card, you'll want to get hold of "That's It; How to Play Mah Jongg with Playing Cards and Chinese Tiles," by Dorothy S. Meyerson. She was one of the founders* of the NMJL, and she published updated versions of her booklet each year. I don't have a copy of the 1954 edition in my mah-jongg library. It would look something like this, the 1951 edition:
You might find it on eBay or in out-of-print bookstores or sites. Good luck with your search!
Before you go, though, you might want to read the discussion titled "What were the rules in 1943?," below (July 23 to July 25).
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Thomas Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 11, 2023
Donations appreciated
*Corrected 8/13 (originally said she was a president of the League). Later digging reveals her title as "Acting President" in the 1946 edition of "That's It."
What's it worth, part 2
Re: Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 08:09:24 PM EDT, Sherry H wrote:
Thank you so much for your quick response. Your comments and analysis are greatly appreciated.
Sherry
You're welcome, Sherry!
Best place to sell, in my opinion, is on eBay. See Tips For Sellers.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 10, 2023
Donations appreciated
What's the penalty?
On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 03:43:51 PM EDT, Deborah C wrote:
Penalty
What is the penalty for exchanging a joker before your draw to start your turn? Thank you.
Hi, Deborah! See FAQ 19-AA; joker redemption out of turn is a death penalty offense.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 10, 2023
Donations appreciated
What's it worth?
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 03:28:36 PM EDT, Sherry H wrote:
Hi Tom.
My mom passed away and had a mah-jongg set.
The condition of the case is fair as the edging around the outside is worn and the latches are old.
There are 152 tiles (8 are covered w tape and from the note in the case are to be used as jokers) and two dice. The tiles are two tone: one side green and the other side butterscotch. The tiles appear to me to be in very good condition. Additionally, there are 8 extra tiles - they are not two tone. They are all 12mm thick, 30mm long, and 20mm wide.
I cannot determine what the tiles are made of even though I reviewed your FAC 7c.
I do not know when or where my mom purchased the set, however she was a collector of antiques so it would not surprise me if it came from an antique dealer.
I have attached pictures of the case and tiles and other things (perhaps tile holders - but not sure because I have never played) in the trumpet like case. I tried to arrange the tiles like the check list described.
From your checklist, the craks appear to be of a simpler style.
Based on this info, are you be able to rate the set / assign a value? I am interested in selling so pros or defects of the set are appreciated. For example, can you tell what the tiles are made of and the approximate date it was made?
I do not play. Can you recommend a place to sell the set? Would this be a set I could sell on your “Sets for Sale” board?
I have attached pictures.
Thank you,
Sherry
Hi, Sherry!
I'm disappointed that the pictures of the tiles are small and blurry. I'll have to go by your word as to the condition of the tiles as Very Good. I agree that Fair is the correct condition for the case. You didn't say what condition the racks are in. From one of your photos, it appears that the brass ends are badly tarnished. So I'm calling the racks just Fair. Also, you didn't say, but I assume there are four racks.
I'm confused as to the tile counts. You said there are 152 two-tone tiles and 8 extra tiles for a total of 160 tiles, but I only see 156 tiles, and I cannot tell which ones are NOT two-tone. I see 4 extra tiles whose yellow side is decidedly darker than all the rest. If you have 152 two-tone tiles and 4 extra (non-two-tone) tiles, that's not a problem. But if you have 148 two-tone tiles and 8 extra (non-two-tone) tiles, that is a huge problem.
One minor defect: the scoring chips are all lost. Most players today don't use the scoring chips, but they're a standard accessory, and modern chips are not as attractive as the originals were.
The white tape is not a bad problem - the set's buyer can remove that and affix proper joker stickers, unless you want to do that. I assume that underneath the tape are flower tile designs. (A previous owner converted flowers to jokers.)
The tiles' material is "plastic." I can't guess what type of plastic since the photos are so poor.
Two-tone tiles are desired by collectors, so I would say that the set is worth somewhere between $90 and $120 as-is... IF you have 152 two-tone tiles. It would be worth more (over $200) if the case were replaced, and the brass polished, and the tape replaced with joker stickers. If you have only 148 two-tone tiles, then the set is worth more like $70, it would be a waste of time to refurbish the set, and the buyer will likely NEVER be able to find 4 needed two-tone tiles to match.
As for the set's age, it appears that the set was manufactured before the 1960s. The basis for that estimate is the fact that the set came with either 12 or 16 flowers, and no jokers. See column 509; if the set came with 12 flowers, it was likely made around 1943. If the set came with 16 flowers, it was likely made around 1946.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 10, 2023
Donations appreciated
Those confusing joker rules!
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 04:45:09 PM EDT, Sally A wrote:
My mah-jongg question or comment is:if I exposed tiles that contain a Joker and someone discards that tile am I allowed to call and replace my joker?
Sally,
FAQ 19-G.2 answers your question.
Once a redeemable tile has been discarded, it can only be taken to create a new set for exposure or mah-jongg. It is NOT permitted to take the tile in order to redeem it for a joker.
Also see those confusing joker rules in FAQ 19.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 9, 2023
Donations appreciated
Edited to correct an error.
She called Mahj and put up too many tiles.
On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 10:49:13 PM EDT, Rosemary B wrote:
Calling MahJongg
A player called MahJongg and put up too many tiles. Another player called her on it. She took back one of the tiles and declared Mahjongg again. She said she hadn’t discarded yet, so she was allowed to change her exposure. I agreed. Were we correct?
Thank you for your time.
Sent from my iPad
Hi, Rosemary!
It's not possible to discard a tile after declaring mah-jongg unless one has too many tiles. If she's showing 14 tiles atop the rack and one on the sloping front of the rack, that's 15 tiles. That's too many tiles, which is a death penalty rule violation. She's dead. She puts the newly exposed tiles back on the sloping front of the rack, and the rest of the players continue playing.
See FAQ 19-AA.
Or if you're still playing "Siamese" mah-jongg and my answer doesn't work with the rules you play, you should ask Gladys Grad (https://siamesemahjongg.com/about-contact-us/).
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 7, 2023
Donations appreciated
"Red goes with craks and dots with soap..." Huh?
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 05:50:34 PM EDT, Marcia A wrote:
My mah-jongg question or comment is: I am a beginning player and mixed up about soap and the dragons. For instance on the back of the card it explains what goes with each like red goes with craks and dots with soap. I I don’t know what that means. Please explain???? Can use them , like dragons and soaps like jokers?
Hi, Marcia!
Where you see D on the front of the card, that means a dragon must be used. The D will have a color, because in American mah-jongg, each of the three dragons is associated with one of the three suits. A hand is one suit if the hand is shown in one color, two suits if the hand is shown in two colors, and so on. Consider the hand
11 333
DDDD
333 55
(Any 3 Suits)
- How many colors? Three. So, how many suits? Three. Let's say your 11 333 is made from dots. And let's say you use craks for the 333 55. Which suit has not been used yet? Bams. Green dragon goes with Bams, so the DDDD has to be green dragons, since you've already used craks and dots in that 3-color (3-suit) hand.
Soaps (white dragon) are associated with dots, but that doesn't mean you have to use dots with 0 (zero), because when used as zero, soaps are no longer suit-related dragons - they're just zeroes, because no other tile can represent zero.
I'm sure you'll have questions about some of the hands on the front of the card. Check FAQ 16 for questions you may have about the 2023 card.
FAQ 16 link
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 6, 2023
Donations appreciated
How old is it? (Part 3)
Re: Mah-Jongg old set, different from American set.
On Friday, August 4, 2023 at 10:22:26 AM EDT, Jonell Y wrote:
Dear Tom,
Thank you for all your help!
Greatly appreciated it!
Have a great weekend!!
Jonell
You're welcome, Jonell.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 4, 2023
Donations appreciated
With a little help from my friends
On Friday, August 4, 2023 at 06:08:13 AM EDT, service@paypal wrote:
You received a payment
Hello, Thomas Sloper
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Thank you, Evelyn! I appreciate you.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 4, 2023
Donations appreciated
Question on JR Fitch's 9 Dragons Mahjong
On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 12:26:12 PM EDT, Edmond K wrote:
Question on JR Fitch's 9 Dragons Mahjong
Hello Mr Sloper,
I have always enjoyed the 9 Dragons software of Mahjong. A 1992 Pro version is available which is said to be Windows 11 compatible. Is this correct? Thank you.
Ed K
I don't know, Ed. I have not tried to install that version on Windows 11.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 3, 2023
Donations appreciated
The 2023 NMJL card, part 18
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 09:16:49 AM EDT, Connie Lou-David O wrote:
My mah-jongg question or comment is:
On the 2023 card first combination in 2468 category can you pick up either the 4 or 6 tile for exposure?
Sent from my iPad
No, you can't. As the rule is explained in
FAQ 19-E.1: "A discard may only be taken to make a PUNG, KONG, QUINT, or SEXTET - or, of course, to make mah-jongg."
FAQ 19 link
I'm adding this to FAQ 16. I recommend you bookmark both FAQ 19 and FAQ 16 for your future reference (FAQ 19 covers the rules of the game, and FAQ 16 covers the 2023 card).
FAQ 16 link
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 3, 2023
Donations appreciated
How old is it? (Part 2)
On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 01:49:00 PM EDT, Jonell Y wrote:
Re: Mah-Jongg old set, different from American set.
Adding additional picture as it didn't attach.
Thank you again!
Jonell
On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 04:06:05 PM EDT, Jonell Y wrote:
Re: Mah-Jongg old set, different from American set.
Hello Tom,
Thank you so much for your fast response!
You are wealth of knowledge!
I'm sending one more pictures that didn't attach.
This shows the complete set.
144 tiles plus the extras.
I'm still a bit confused. There are 4 red, green and blue dragons. Blue what we use as soaps? Usa game?
We have additional pieces. The exyra winds are flowers?
Hope this gives you an idea. To help me understand what they are?
Thank you again.
Jonell
Hi, Jonell. I was working and missed seeing your two latest emails until hours later, when I found and rescued them from my Spam folder.
The blue dragons are your white dragons (soap, as we wild and crazy American guys and gals say). Too bad that one of them is so badly discolored.
The E-S-W-N flowers at upper left are the flowers that originally came with the set.
(The reason they're marked with wind designator letters has to do with how flowers were treated in the original game before American mah-jongg came along, the same reason flowers have numbers on them. See FAQ 19-CB.)
All the yellow tiles (eight dark yellow flowers, and two light yellow flowers and two light yellow blanks) were added later to satisfy changing NMJL requirements. Those tiles make the set essentially playable, but they don't really belong with the celluloid tiles.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 1, 2023
Donations appreciated
How old is it?
On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 01:25:45 PM EDT, Jonell Y wrote:
Mah-Jongg old set, different from American set.
Hello Tom,
I'd appreciate your expertise on the set we have had in our family since the 1960's, possibly longer.
My mother in law, currently 94 , inherited from her aunt.
We believe it's from China or a Chinese version with the racks that have betting chips. We have 5 racks?
It's in an alligator case however its from US, original markings on lock/clasp read: eagle lock co. TEARYVILLE Conn. USA.
This set is different from my newer American set.
We'd like you guidance and any information you can shed light on from dating it, to it's origi, Is it bone or ivory? Not sure if we are missing pieces or not?
Please see attached pictures.
Greatly appreciate your help!
Thank you,
Jonell
Hi, Jonell! To answer your five questions, in the order asked:
1. Yes, that does appear to be five racks. If you're wondering why there are five, see FAQ 7D.
2. The tiles could be from the 1920s, that's when celluloid tiles were made. The case and racks could have been made in the 1930s.
I was not shown how the tiles look when packed into the case - I suspect they don't look like the case was made specifically to fit those tiles. I don't think celluloid tiles were originally packaged in these "trumpet cases" with racks, but maybe the "Other Excellent Mah-Jongg Sites" linked to in FAQ 4A have info on celluloid sets that came in that type of case.
3. All (tiles, case, racks) were made in America.
4. Neither bone nor ivory. The tiles are solid celluloid. Celluloid tiles are collectible, but unfortunately, they've aged unevenly (some tiles being differently colored, faded with time). See FAQ 7C for info about celluloid.
5. I can't tell if it's complete because I don't see four red dragons and four white dragons - you put placeholder tiles there, or maybe you turned the fourth dragons over (face down), but it looks to me like you're missing a red dragon and a white dragon. A previous owner has also added 10 yellow flower tiles, and what looks like two extra blank tiles. If you wonder why those were added, it's because the National Mah Jongg League required extra flowers at one time. You can see column 509 for details, if you're interested.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
August 1, 2023
Donations appreciated
How old is my set?
On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 09:31:30 PM EDT, Nadia S wrote:
Set Age-Determination
Hi,
I came across your website online and I saw that I am able to email you and you can help me determine the age of my Mahjongg set. Below are the checklist answers:
1. Carrying case, tiles, 3 small dice (big red dot), 1 wind indicator(cube in holder), 1 instruction manual missing cover
2. The instructional manual is missing the cover, it has no dates or author mentioned.
3. I could not tell what the tiles are made of. I think they might be either Bakelite or Catalin, the tiles are carved, engraved and painted and each one is unique in shape and size. They are also two-toned, but I can't find one with the same colors.
4. I have no information on this set. We got it from my husband's parent's house, it was in his stuff and we have a speculation that it's either from his grandmother or grandfather due to how old it looks and nobody can remember where it's from or who's it was.
5. The average length is 1inch, the depth is about 1/2 inch and the width is about 3/4 inch. Each toned portion is about a 1/4 inch in depth.
6. 144 marked tiles, 4 blank tiles (148 tiles in all). Either 8 or 12 flowers, I couldn't tell what 4 of them were (4 were identical and looked kind of like birds). No jokers in the set. All basic 136 tiles are present.
7. I'm not sure what type of case it's in, it seems like wood or cardboard covered in some sort of orange vinyl. It appears to be aged, but no signs of damage.
8. I believe it has modern craks, but I'm honestly unsure, it does appear to be more elabore vs. basic than most.
I really hope you can help me figure out what kind of set this is and how it is. Thanks in advance and I hope to hear from you soon!
Best,
Nadia
Hi, Nadia!
I bought a similar set (with different-colored backs and carrying case, probably same manufacturer) in the early 1990s, and the set was new at the time. So my age estimate is late 1980s to early 1990s.
Oh wait, you also asked "what kind of set" it is. It's made for playing most Asian variants. It's not suitable for American mah-jongg because it doesn't have eight jokers. It's not quite what Japanese players would want, because it doesn't have red fives. See the Types of Sets FAQ.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 30, 2023
Donations appreciated
Do you sell Mah Jong bags?
On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 05:12:23 PM EDT, Sherry Brewer <sherry_brewer@icloud.com> wrote:
Bags
I found a note to myself probably 6 months old about you. Do you sell Mah Jong bags? And I also wrote The Red Dragon &The West Wind. I also have a phone number 410-484-6072. Is that for you? I want anything mahjong, learning materials, merchandise for team mates Christmas gift, ect. Is that what you do? Thank you,
Sherry Brewer 210-386-6790 San Antonio, TX
Sent from my iPhone
No, that's not what I do, Sherry. Hey, good luck with your book! Catchy title, by the way.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 30, 2023
Donations appreciated
What does the writing on these tiles say, part 3
(What do these One Dot symbols represent, part 11)
Re: Do these One Dot tiles have a hidden meaning?
On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 03:24:38 AM EDT, Bridget van H wrote:
Yes Tom, you are quite right. These One Dots belong to a Talking Hawk set.
Good morning, Bridget.
As I wrote in the Manufacturers FAQ, I'm not an expert in manufacturers - and that also includes named mah-jongg sets. Maybe "Talking Hawk" means something to the collectors in the Mah Jongg Collectors Association but, sadly, I've never heard of it. I suppose it's so named for the illustration on the 1B tiles, but I've never seen it. I haven't heard from Ray yet, by the way. He may be on summer vacation, traveling, which people are doing again now that the COVID emergency is over.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 30, 2023
Donations appreciated
Chinese "up joker" vs. "down joker"
On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:11:32 PM EDT, Carol wrote:
Jokers in Chinese Mahjong
In the Chinese Mahjong app by JoyGames.net that I occasionally play, they ask if I want to play popular mahjong or International mahjong (defined as more than 8 points). My question is that if I choose Popular mahjong then I need to say whether I want to play with jokers or not ... and if I do choose jokers, do I want "up joker" or "down joker." I have no idea what the "up" and "down" refers to ... do you?
Thanks so much for your website,
Carol
Medford OR
Sorry, Carol, I don't know, but I guess it might have to do with the distinctions between different sorts of jokers as used in Vietnamese mah-jongg.
Mah-jongg historian Michael Stanwick wrote about those in FAQ 7E-J.
Actually, both those links point to different places in FAQ 7E-J.
A guess: maybe the "down jokers" serve as wild tiles for numbered suit tiles while "up jokers" serve as wild tiles for honors (winds and dragons).
Or maybe the "down jokers" can only be used for numbered suit tiles while "up jokers" can be used for any tile.
If the up and down tiles have different symbols on them, maybe you can take a screenshot and send it to me.
Of course you can also select one, and see if they get used by your opponent bots (assuming that when the joker is used, it shows a joker symbol on it - if the joker, once used, simply assumes the face of whatever tile it's replacing, it'll be difficult for you to tell that's a joker). In other words, try them both and see if you can figure out how they work from context.
Have fun, and good luck!
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 29, 2023
Donations appreciated
What does the writing on these tiles say, part 2
(What do these One Dot symbols represent, part 10)
On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:38:57 AM EDT, Bridget van H wrote:
Do these One Dot tiles have a hidden meaning?
Hi Tom
Higher res image as requested. Hoping that Ray has enough to go on now
With many thanks and kind regards
Bridget
One dots hawk set.jpg
1.4MB
I won't try to decipher them myself because the characters are so stylized, but I will ask Ray if he would have a look. I'm curious, Bridget. Your picture's filename refers to "hawk set." I take it that means your 1B tiles depict a hawk?
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 29, 2023
Donations appreciated
The 2023 NMJL card, part 17
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 06:02:34 PM EDT, Man H wrote:
My mah-jongg question or comment is:
On the 2023 card in consecutive runs on line 7:
Can I call Mah Jongg with a hand that has:
4 - Flowers
3 - #4 cracks
3 - #4 Dots
2 - #5 bams
2 - #6 bams
FFFF 444(cracks) 444(dots) 55 66(bams)
Or must the pungs be 7s?
Hi, Man! The pungs have to be sevens if the pairs are fives and sixes. If the pungs are fours, the pairs have to be twos and threes. In most Consecutive Run hands, you can choose your own starting (lowest) number, but you can never mess with the hand's structure. The card shows FFFF 11 22 333 333, meaning the pungs must be made of the next consecutive number after the two pairs. You can't turn it around the other way.
I'll add this Q&A to FAQ 16.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 28, 2023
Donations appreciated
The 2023 NMJL card, part 16
On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 06:24:21 PM EDT, Star Fire wrote:
Re: Ruling
We had a question on the card under 2023, third line down. Shows 3 colors so we assumed 3 different suits should be used, but wording says 2023 any suit and ANY dragons. With that being said, can't one of the dragons be the same as the numbers?
FFFF DDD 2023 DDD
FFFF DDD 2023 DDD
Thank you for your ruling.
Star Fire
Hi, Star!
I'd like to introduce you to FAQ 16, which answers your question and many other questions about the 2023 NMJL card. I suggest you bookmark it.
FAQ 16 link
FAQ 16 says: The 2023 can be the same suit as one of your dragon pungs. You can make the hand in two or three suits. The parenthetical overrides the color-coding. You can use dots in the 2023, but you don't have to. You can use a pung of soaps, but you don't have to. The dragon pungs have to be two different dragons.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 25, 2023
Donations appreciated
What were the rules in 1943, part 3
On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 01:38:53 PM EDT, C wrote:
Re: Mah-Jongg Q+A
Thanks so much for your help! Can I make an anonymous donation? ??
Sent from my iPhone
Yes, you can! I can either withhold your name from the donation post or just not post the Paypal notice at all. Thanks in advance! Glad my response was helpful.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 25, 2023
Donations appreciated
What were the rules in 1943, part 2
Addendum/correction to yesterday's response to C████, about the 1943 rules.
I decided I should dig deeper. I pulled out my copy of Viola Cecil's 1940 rulebook.
● The 1940 rulebook says that pungs MAY be exposed, provided that the player "holds two (or one and a flower) of that tile in hand." But the pung-containing hands on the 1943 card are all concealed (those hands are NOT marked with an X).
● I did find the rule on the back of the card about flower discards being illegal. It was also illegal to pass flowers in the Charleston.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 25, 2023
Donations appreciated
What were the rules in 1943?
On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 11:55:49 PM EDT, C████ wrote:
Mah-Jongg Q+A
Background only…not really part of the question.
[Sentence omitted] I want to play MJ [omitted] with the 1943 card and by the rules in place for that year. I have the card for that year in hand, which I have read, and I’ve also read what you’ve written about that year. I understand the 12 flowers are used like jokers. I read the rule for that year says everyone starts with one flower, and they can’t be discarded.
Here’s the question:
I am looking for information about how the NMJL game of Mah Jongg was played in 1943. Is anything else special or different about rules of play for that year that isn’t on the back of the 1943 card?
Warm Regards, and thanks in advance!
C████
Sent from Mail for Windows
Re: Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 12:26:53 AM EDT, C wrote:
Hi again! I wrote the below as I was hoping you wouldn’t publish the background info. [Sentence omitted] If you can’t respond to my question without it, I understand, and would respectively withdraw the question. If you need to use the background info it would be okay if you don’t have to use my name or email. Again, thank you in advance!
Hi, C████! I always start the day with Wordle and Jumble, but you presented me with not one but two puzzles. Your question, of course, is one. Perhaps the greater puzzle, though, was how to satisfy your extraordinary request for secrecy.
You already know the rules on the card itself. The biggest difference is that the 12 flowers were "wild" and there were no jokers, as you've already noted. But if the set you're using doesn't have 12 flowers, you'll have to use some jokers to represent flowers (while using the other flowers as functional jokers).
You can see that the Charleston rules are the same, but then you have to drop whatever rules the League has adopted in the last 80 years. By using my browser's search function in FAQ 19 to find the word "when," I find these rules:
● FAQ 19-S.2: wild tiles could be used to represent a single or as part of a pair back then, since the rule forbidding that was not introduced until 1984.
● FAQ 19-R: there was a rule against "looking ahead," but there was no explicit rule against picking ahead until 1956.
I checked the 1943 card and noticed something curious: the card mentions how claiming a discard for a kong, quint, or sextet works, but nothing about claiming a discard for a pung. I think you should assume that it's not allowed to call a discard to make a single, pair, or pung.* But you can use wild tiles as a single or in any size of grouping.
Rule 5 on the back of the card mentions "exchange," which seems to mean one can redeem (exchange) a natural tile for a wildflower, just as one can redeem jokers today.
Now for breakfast. And Wordle and Jumble. And that's quite enough puzzling for today, thank you very much. No more secrecy requests, if you please.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 24, 2023
Donations appreciated
* See correction next day in Part 2 (above).
P.S. I don't know when I've ever written about the 1943 card before, and I don't find on the card that wildflowers could not be discarded. But that rule makes sense since wildflowers could be used for anything and everything. - Tom
What does the writing on these tiles say?
(What do these One Dot symbols represent, part 9)
On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 10:23:43 AM EDT, Bridget van H wrote:
Do these One Dot tiles have a hidden meaning?
Hi Tom
I’d love to know what these tiles say.
Kind regards
Bridget
Hi, Bridget! Little problem: the photo is low-resolution and the characters are written with a stylized squarish look that's hard to decipher for someone (like me) who knows only a very few Chinese characters and has to look them up by stroke count. Maybe my friend Ray Heaton will be able to figure them out, but I think a higher-res photo is needed. As it is, I won't ask Ray to have a look until you can send a better picture.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 22, 2023
Donations appreciated
P.S. The writing on 1D tiles usually just says the name of the manufacturing company, so I wouldn't hold out hopes for anything romantic or interesting. - Tom
P.P.S. Did you, by chance, see the series of posts titled "What do these One Dot symbols represent," from last February, below? Your symbols are different from those in that previous correspondence.
How much is my set worth?
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 12:22:45 AM EDT, Michael M wrote:
My mah-jongg question or comment is: how much is my Mah-Jongg set worth. Hi Tom I picked up a MJ set at a garage sale a couple weeks ago and am looking to sell it but the problem is I have no idea what it’s value is. I came across your website and saw the part about free appraisal if I could answer some questions and it be public so here it goes hopefully I do this right.
The set contains 144 tiles, 120 sticks, 4 small dice, 1 medium dice, 4 wind discs, a cylindrical container with a lid, Babcock’s rules for Mah-Jongg, and a box to put everything in.
The condition of the set is fair to good. But that’s because the pieces look dirty and I didn’t want to try and clean them and ruin anything. Also their is a small gap on a couple tiles.
I don’t know what the tiles are made of. Possibly bamboo and bone? I was kinda hoping you knew and wanted to share that information with me.
I don’t really know anything about the history of the set.
The tiles are in mm 28 x 19.6 x 10.8 with small variations between them of .1 or so and the small piece on top looks to be about 1.7 mm thick. That doesn’t affect overall size I just said as a side note for more information. I also believe the 2 pieces that form the tiles are glued together.
144 tiles total with the 1 bam as a bird, no jokers, what looks like Chinese writing with English numbers in the corner of the bams, dots, cracks, and flowers as well as N S E W on the corner of the winds and the white dragon are 4 blank tiles and the dragons are the only tiles without a number or letter on them. Their are 8 flower tiles all with unique picture on each one. As far as the sticks go the 1 red dot sticks have 36 pieces the 2 black dot have 8 pieces the 5 red dot have 8 pieces and the 10 black dot have 36 pieces. The 4 wind discs also vary in size a little bit but all fit In the cylindrical container.
The set comes in a small wood container with a lid that slides off and in that box is a large section and a divider to give it 2 more sections. No marking with the exception or 104 written on the floor of container inside of it.
The instructions it comes with is complete but worn. The pages look like they have yellowed, some have tears, there is a stain on a few of the last pages possibly
The craks are what I believe is simpler style
12. 13. 14. I’ll answer with pictures
Zero jokers
Thank you sir and hope this info helps get an answer.
Hi, Michael! Wow, you did a great job telling me what I need to know. Good pictures, too.
I agree that the set is Fair to Good (closer to Good than to Fair).
The set's good points:
- The carving of the tile designs is attractively done. The arrangement of the dots on the 9-dots tiles is uncommon, thus of interest.
- All required tiles are present to play many variants of mah-jongg.
- The paper booklet is present.
- The case is not falling apart, and the lid is not warped.
- The sticks are divisible by 4 (and each denomination is also divisible by 4), meaning it appears all sticks are present.
- The wind discs and mingg are all there, and there are enough dice to play with (all anybody really needs is two).
The set's bad points:
- You say the tiles are dirty and need a careful cleaning; there is an orange stain of some kind on one of the tiles. There is an unsightly gap between the bone and bamboo on two tiles, you say.
- Those bone and bamboo sets always came with four extra blank tiles, but those are gone.
- Those sets always came with 5 dice and a little wooden coffin-shaped container. One of the 5 original dice is gone and has been replaced by an off-size plastic die, and there is no dice coffin. You can toss the plastic die; it detracts from the set and should be removed.
- The booklet is extremely wrinkled, and desperately needs flattening.*
- The slide-top type of box is not as desirable as the five-drawer/slide-front type of box.
If the set was in Very Good condition, it would be worth somewhere between $95 and $115, but in its present condition, it's worth between $70 and $80.
*You can probably improve the wrinkled rulebook's condition by flattening it in a pile of books for a couple of years. That would add another $10 or so to the set's value. There are cleaning tips in FAQ 7-o - as long as you avoid wiping the water-soluble paint in the carved designs, you can improve the tiles' appearance.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 22, 2023
Donations appreciated
Is it ivory?
On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 11:45:27 PM EDT, Daniel & Megan P wrote:
Ivory Mahjong Tiles?
Hello,
I have an old Mahjong set that my grandfather bought at an antique store atleast 30 years ago.
Im reviewing all of the pictures on your website and the lines on the titles don’t look like anything but your picture of the ivory tile.
Could you take a look at these pictures and let me know what you think?
Thanks!
Daniel P
Sorry, Daniel. Look again at FAQ 7c and see the entry on celluloid. Your tiles are celluloid on wood.
Your confusion is understandable; the makers of celluloid intended it to be a lookalike substitute for ivory, and celluloid is often called "French ivory." I'll add this Q&A to the Comments section of the 'Is It Ivory' FAQ for future visitors.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 21, 2023
Donations appreciated
I can say mah-jongg on a discard if I'm waiting for a single or to complete a pair, correct?
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 06:15:59 PM EDT, Susan V wrote:
My mah-jongg question or comment is:
Is this correct-
A player can call for a tile to complete a mahjong including for a pair and a single
Sent from my iPad
Yes. See FAQ 19-E3.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 20, 2023
Donations appreciated
We need tiles for visually impaired players
On Tuesday, July 18, 2023 at 10:17:21 AM EDT, J B wrote:
Tiles
Hello Tom
I run a group which has two visually impaired members and have been trying to find an enlarged set. I have found a number of sets with 40 x 30 tiles but none have arabic numbers on them. Any suggestions?
Also tried to send a similar message to UK MJ Assn but their link doesn't work and there isn't an address on their site so no way to get in touch.
I hope you may be able to help.
regards, John B
South Lakes u3a
Hi, John!
I've written an FAQ on tiles for visually impaired players. See FAQ 7-S. I hope it's helpful. Read it all, including the reader suggestions.
I'm afraid the UK MJ Association has disbanded, unfortunately. I suspect it was very small to begin with.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 18, 2023
Donations appreciated
The card says "2s and 8s only," so...
Mah-Jongg Q A
On Tuesday, July 18, 2023 at 08:12:13 AM EDT, Anne D wrote:
Hello Mr Sloper,
My mah-jongg question is:
Perhaps you could clarify a hand on the 2023 National Mah Jongg League card, 2468/5, of which one of my friends is in disagreement with the rest of us...
She insists that jokers cannot be used for either the 222 or 888 - both because the card states, "2s and 8s Only" and because the online game she uses (MyJongg) calls her hand dead when she uses a joker for either the 2s or 8s. As we understand the rules, jokers should be allowed for the 222 or 888.
Thank you for your help!
Anne
Hi, Anne!
"2s and 8s only" does not mean jokers can't be used. It says on the back of the card that jokers may be used in any grouping of three or more like tiles. A joker is a 2 or 8 if you say it is!
I'll add this to FAQ 16, which answers frequently asked questions about the 2023 NMJL card.
As for the computer game: Your friend might have been called dead on that hand for some other reason. She should try again to make that hand on her computer game, and if it happens again, she should contact the makers of that game to inquire.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 18, 2023
Donations appreciated
The 2023 NMJL card, part 15
How does the death challenge work, exactly? What's the procedure?
On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 08:34:01 PM EDT, Louetta M <bookworm> wrote:
(No Subject)
I looked carefully thru the Q and A and couldn’t find the answer to my question, so:
When I learned to play Mah Jong many years ago, my teacher said that if you declare a person’s hand dead, but it can be confirmed by a third party, ( we always play in groups, so I would get a third party from another table to confirm dead or not), that the players hand was indeed not dead, but still a legal hand, that the person who made the accusation would then be dead. I have been teaching for a very long time and continue to teach that. We do not play for money and I don’t encourage the declaring a hand dead but if it comes up I would like to have the correct answer.
What are your thoughts on this practice?
Lou aka bookworm
Thanks for all your work.
Sent from Mail for Windows
Hi, Lou!
Your teacher taught you wrong.
The actual death challenge rules are described fully in FAQ 19. And I have some books to recommend, too. There's my book, The Red Dragon & The West Wind. There's Mah Jongg Made Easy, the official rulebook of the NMJL. And a couple of books by Elaine Sandberg... (see FAQ 3 for a lot more books about mah-jongg).
The death challenge rule is perfectly fine to use - when you know someone cannot make mah-jongg, it's beneficial for the other players if that player stops removing tiles from the wall. That can help someone else make mah-jongg.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 12, 2023
Donations appreciated
Sloperama supportarama!
On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 04:58:35 PM EDT, service@paypal wrote:
Reference: MJ@Sloperama Sloperama Mah-Jongg Answers - Donation from Darlene C
Hello Thomas Sloper,
Donation Received
This email confirms that you have received a donation of $20.00 USD from Darlene C
You can view the transaction details online.
Donation Details
Total amount: $20.00 USD
Currency: U.S. Dollars
Quantity: 1
Purpose: Sloperama Mah-Jongg Answers
Contributor: Darlene C
PayPal
Thank you very much, Darlene!
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 12, 2023
Donations appreciated
Make, material, value, age or anything else
On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 07:22:33 AM EDT, Melanie C wrote:
Mah Jong
Hi
I have this set that I found inn my sisters house and have no idea of make, material, value, age or anything else. If you can give me any advice I would be grateful.
Kind regards
Mel
Hi, Mel!
Make: I assume you mean, what company manufactured the set. That I couldn't say for certain. See FAQ 19-U.
Material: It's that mysterious non-shiny material that mah-jongg collectors call "Chinese Bakelite," but is really neither Chinese nor Bakelite. It's been hypothesized that maybe it's pulverized reconstituted fishbone dyed yellow, or maybe an unknown plastic. The backs look like they're firmly attached, one piece with the fronts, not glued on, which suggests plastic. Those sharp edges (bottom and top edge when viewing a tile face-on) are definite indicators of not being Bakelite. See
FAQ 7c and
FAQ 7c3.
Value: Value derives from a combination of condition, beauty, completeness, and rarity. You didn't use the value checklist from FAQ 7h, but your photos are reasonably sharp. The photos are all I have to work with.
-Tiles: Your photos seem to indicate that the tiles are solid, mostly not too scuffed or scratched (although zooming in, I did see a few marred tiles). The tiles appear to be handmade, not machine made (see the third and fourth 8-dot tiles, see how the dots are not perfectly aligned). The paint is not worn, but the paint on the faded tiles has lost its brightness - see the craks, how the red has darkened to near-black. On the bright side, they're all there. Sixteen flowers, which is good (an American player could sticker eight of them to make jokers, needed to play American rules). Many of the tiles are faded - the tiles are no longer uniformly colored.
I judge the condition of the tiles to be "GOOD - Item is worn but reasonably attractive; any normal person would notice the defects without having to look for them."
- The case: You did not take a photo of the outside of the case. You did not show how the case looks with the tiles and bits all packed in it. The clips (clothespins) and screws and hinges, and the colored tray corners all indicate that the top is not attached to the bottom, and a repair effort has been made on the tray corners, and a repair effort is underway now. I judge the condition of the case to be "POOR - Item is not usable, or is only just barely usable, or is unpleasant to use." Once the hinges are attached and the case can be used to enclose the tiles without needing to tie string around it, the case condition will be upgraded to "FAIR - Item is utilitarian but not attractive," due to the glue/paint (?) at the corners of the trays. And as I mentioned, I don't know how the case looks on the outside.
- The other bits: You have four wind discs and a rule booklet, five small dice, and an unknown number of mismatched scoring sticks. The wind discs are an unusual type, metal, tarnished. The booklet is not a common type, but it's been written on.
Conclusion: Good news and bad news. The good news: the set is complete enough, and the two-tone material is desired by collectors. The bad news: many flaws, especially the discoloration of the tiles. The set may be worth anywhere from US$70 to $90. The booklet alone may be worth $15 or so (it would be more if it was unmarked), but don't separate the booklet from the set.
Age: Probably 1930s-1950s. You might try these other excellent mah-jongg sites to see if you can find sets similar to your sister's.
Anything else: I have nothing to add.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
7/11/23
Donations appreciated
How much, part 2
On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 07:21:30 PM EDT, Nora S wrote:
Re: value estimation of Mah Jong set
Thanks Tom, much appreciated!
Cheers,
Nora
You're welcome, Nora!
How much is it worth?
On Saturday, July 8, 2023 at 11:20:26 PM EDT, Nora S wrote:
value estimation of Mah Jong set
Hi Tom,
I came across your website and read it carefully, trying to adhere to your instructions as closely as possible. Could you please give me an estimate of the value of this Mah Jong set ? I'm happy for you to post it on your bulletin.
Here are the details:
Mah-Jong Set - bought in 1986 in Shanghai on a street market.
Case: wood (?) covered in fabric (exterior) and paper (interior); dimensions = 360mm long x 233mm wide x 40mm high; condition of case is ‘fair’ i.e. can be used but has tears in fabric and paper covering and mildew stains inside; handle is rusty;
Contents: 4 trays with 144 tiles; plus 1 box with 8 blank tiles, 118 sticks, 6 dices and 4 wind indicator disks; counting sticks and disks seem to be plastic or bakelite; no chips or manual or anything else;
Condition of tiles is good; only 2 tiles (Bams) have a damaged corner (see last photo); they are not marked with western indices;
Material of tiles is bamboo and bone; thickness of bamboo 10mm; Thickness of bone 3mm;
Dimension of tiles 31mm long x 23mm wide x 13mm high
Here are some photos, which I hope will give you enough of a picture for an estimate.
Best regards,
Nora
Hi, Nora! You did a wonderful job of providing me the information!
Value is all about quality. The staining inside the box is unsightly, and those two chipped tiles are a problem. Also, the tiles do not have Western indices (Roman letters and Arabic numerals), which means most American and Western Hemisphere players can't read the craks suit, nor the winds, dragons, and jokers.
This type of set was widely distributed beyond China in the 1990s, with indices and without chipped edges, and even with a mangled-English instruction booklet. Those made-for-export sets went for anywhere from $50 to $90 initially; new sets of that type still go for the $90 dollar range, give or take ten.
But your set is old, has 2 dinged-up tiles, and doesn't have indices, so it's worth somewhere around $50, give or take twenty.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 9, 2023
Donations appreciated
How old is this American-style set?
On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 04:27:26 PM EDT, nava l wrote:
Hi Tom,
I apologize if this email went through to you already- it's not showing in my 'sent' folder, so just in case...
I stumbled onto your site and was wondering if you could share any insight into when my Mahjong set was made?
It belonged to my grandmother who died in Brooklyn in 1969 and that's all I know, besides that she had a regular Tuesday night game for many years. Based on the 8 flowers and lack of jokers I'm thinking '37-'42, but wondering if that's correct or if there are any clues I'm missing or further indicators about the date?
The set looks to me like bakelite. There are 14 titles on the right that are not part of the same set, but were in the box. These others appear to be a mix of bakelite and catalin (I'm deducing that from your site as some are shinier and more translucent than the others). There are 148 tiles total in the main set, including 8 flowers and 4 blanks (2 with joker stickers). The tiles are quite thick - dimensions are 7/8" x 1&1/4" with a thickness of 5/8". The box is alligator style with latches and 2 trays inside. Apologies for the lighting as the colors aren't reading well, but the tiles are a butterscotch shade and the images are carved.
I'm also curious about the assorted flowers and blanks that do not match the main set. I play Taiwanese rules, so I don't know if they might have been added for American-style play or if you could imagine another reason?
Thanks so much!
Nava
Hi, Nava!
You did a beautiful job of providing photos, and asking your questions! Thank you for that.
It is an American-made set, made before 1970, for sure, because the (American) National Mah Jongg League required every set to have at least 8 jokers, starting in 1970. We can narrow it down farther than that: your set came originally with no jokers, and only four blanks and eight flowers. See the Flowers/Jokers chart in column 509. As early as 1943, the League began to require 12 flowers to play their card (list of hands) that year. So your set is older than 1943. Could have been made in the late 1930s or early 1940s. I can't zero it down any more than that.
The extra "alien" tiles in the set were added to comply with the changing NMJL flower counts. Your set has 20 flowers and 2 jokers. See the chart; in the early 1960s, the added flowers (from other sets), together with the 2 stickered jokers, comply with the 1960-62 requirements. 20 flowers were needed the hear before, and once tiles were added, extras were not removed.
This "foreign flowers" trick was commonly done back when the League kept changing the tile counts. So we know the set was made before 1943, and it stopped getting extra tiles added to it in 1962.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 9, 2023
Donations appreciated
How to use an online game as a teaching aid, part 4
On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 08:22:52 PM EDT, service@paypal wrote:
Reference: MJ@Sloperama Sloperama Mah-Jongg Answers - Donation from Edward S
Hello Thomas Sloper,
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Thank you, Leslie!
How to use an online game as a teaching aid, part 3
Re: Question about teaching others how to play
On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 04:47:50 PM EDT, L S wrote:
Hi again,
When I responded, I typed too fast (as usual) and wrote “mad” instead of “make” when I was trying to say that I will make a donation. Sorry about that.
I was wondering if you use PayPal. I would like to make the donation with PayPal but if not, then I will select one of the other ways at the bottom of the page.
Thanks again,
Leslie
P.S.: My friend has not tried your suggestion yet but when/if she does, I will let you know how it goes. I know what you mean about ZOOM. I had to help everyone in my Book Club to understand how to meet during the pandemic when I sent out the invites. But we are great at it now.
Thanks, Leslie. There's just one way to donate to me, and it does happen to be Paypal. Just click the Donate button above, or any "Donations appreciated" link on this site, and that'll send you right to Paypal.
Play safe out there, I know that's what you're already doing. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
7/7/2023
Donations appreciated
How to use an online game as a teaching aid, part 2
Re: Question about teaching others how to play
On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 03:50:52 PM EDT, L S wrote:
Thanks so much for the quick response. I will follow you direction and I most likely will mad a donation to you in the near future. You deserve it!!
After I read your posted response, I will get back to you to let you know if it worked.
Thank again,
Leslie
You're welcome, Leslie!
Good luck.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
7/7/2023
Donations appreciated
How to use an online game as a teaching aid or platform?
On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 12:41:34 PM EDT, L S wrote:
Question about teaching others how to play
Hi,
I learned so much from your website several years ago that I was able to teach 6 friends how to play. Since the pandemic, I have been playing everyday online at realmahjongg.com because we stopped playing in person. We will probably get back together to play in person but until then, playing online has been great!
So now, one of the gals I taught is trying to teach her sister how to play but they are in 2 different states. (I taught all of my friends in person at my home.)
Do you have any suggestions on how to play on the computer but “share” open hands at the same time in order to help someone learn how to play?
It may sound like a strange question but I thought if anyone had an answer, it would be you.
Thanks so much for all you do!
Leslie S
Hi, Leslie!
It's not a strange question. You can use Zoom or Teams and Share your screen with the students - and the students can share their tiles with the group, too. But one drawback of this method is you'll probably have to deal with students who need to be taught how to use Zoom or Teams, how to Share, and other questions that inevitably arise when newbies try to use online conferencing software. "How come I can't hear anybody?" "Hey Susie, you have to turn your mic on!" "How come I can't see Deborah?" "How do I get back to the game?" "Now I can't see Zoom!" "What's a browser tab?" And so forth and so on. And that's if you get everybody to manage to get to your Zoom room in the first place! Good luck!
I'll add this to FAQ 26.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
7/7/2023
Donations appreciated
Which variant, part 2
On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 02:51:50 AM EDT, Neal B wrote:
Re: Mah-Jongg Q+A
Thanks for your answer Tom.
Much appreciated
Neal
On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 02:50:02 AM EDT, service@paypal wrote:
Reference: MJ@Sloperama Sloperama Mah-Jongg Answers - Donation from Neal B
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You're welcome, Neal! Thanks for the donation!
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 7, 2023
Donations appreciated
Which variant does this booklet describe?
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 06:16:04 PM EDT, Neal B wrote:
My mah-jongg question or comment is:
Hi Tom
Thanks for offering to help with MJ questions.
First off... I have checked the FAQs and I don't *think* the answer to my question is there, but if it is and I've missed it. My apologies for doing so.
My Mah-Jong set (144 tiles, including 8 flower/ season tiles) came with a small red booklet (23 pages) entitled (exactly)....
Directions of Playing Mah-Jongg
"Chinese Game of Four Winds"
It is also online here...
https://imgur.io/a/DFEIHTH
It doesn't seem to match any version I've found so far on any of the mahjong websites.
If refers to selecting a BANKER who is not East Wind but is selected by East Wind (page 5)
It also refers to 3 of a kind as kongs and four of a kind as kangs!
It makes no use of the word "Chow" at all.
Concealed 3 of a kind is called "Em-kong".
Visible 3 of a kind is called "Ming-kong"
These names seem completely unlike any of the usual names given by the other versions I have seen (HKOS, Chinese classical etc) which use "chows" and "pungs" and only use "kong" to describe FOUR of a kind which this booklet calls "Kangs"
Do you recognise which variant of the game the book is describing?
Thanks very much for any help you can give me.
All the best.
Neal
Hi, Neal!
Valiant effort, but it's widely known (in English-speaking countries, anyway) that that free booklet is indecipherable. I've tried, too, but since I can't read "Chinglish*," and since I suspect that it was written by someone who did not know the game, and who simply translated someone else's series of Chinese words without an understanding of how English sentences are put together, I've been unable to get any farther than you have.
I have acquired many sets that include that booklet. It comes in a variety of different covers - I'm most familiar with the pink cover edition. It's been around for years, decades. It's unattributed*, so is effectively public domain (no royalties have to be paid by set manufacturers). Those manufacturers are themselves anonymous, which makes it hard to try to do anything about this deplorable state of affairs. I'm sure I've written about this before on this site, somewhere. My recommendation is, don't try any more to decipher it. It's probably a futile exercise.
* Politically incorrect, I'm sure. My bad.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 6, 2023
Donations appreciated
* P.S. 8/16/23: I came across a very old and weathered edition (same title, same contents) that says "Mee Sun Hong, HongKong" - but that's a company name, not an author's name. - Tom
Three people rolled a 7! Now what??
On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 02:50:03 PM EDT, Anna Mae S wrote:
Mah-Jongg Q+A
My mah-jongg question or comment is:
Playing with a 5 th person as bettor we roll the dice to see who is the bettor for the first game of the day ( so they sit out first game). After establishing who is the bettor and which 4 are in the first game, we then roll to see who of the remaining 4, is East to start the first game.
So to establish who is the bettor the first person rolled a 5 then the next 4 people each rolled a 7!
So question is: does the person who rolled the 5 sit out and be the bettor, and the remaining 4 who each rolled a 7, and ( are in the first game) then roll to see who is East for the first game?
The person who rolled the 5 argued that she shouldn’t be out and that the 4 people who rolled 7’s should roll again to see if someone is lower than a 5.
Any precedence on this?
Thank you
Anna Mae
Sent from my iPad
Hi, Anna Mae!
The official rulebook does say you can roll dice to determine the dealer (high roller takes the deal), but the rulebook does not specify how to choose which of five players shall be the first bettor. You can certainly roll the dice to determine that.
It's completely up to the group to figure this out.
If you want to roll dice just once (rather than roll once to determine dealer and again to determine bettor), high roller could be first dealer and low roller could be first bettor. (Just a suggestion.)
What most people do when multiple players roll the same number is have them roll again until the matter is sorted out. You could also do paper-scissors-rock, draw straws, draw lots, flip coins...
It's completely up to the group to figure this out.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 6, 2023
Donations appreciated
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Thank you again, Evelyn!
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 7, 2023
Donations appreciated
Conflicting claims
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 04:52:35 PM EDT, Hedy G wrote:
My mah-jongg question or comment is:
It was my turn to pick a tile. I was on call for MJ. I just needed a red. The player preceding me threw a 6 bam. As I picked I noticed it was a red dragon. I called MJ before I racked and at the same time the person to her left said she wanted that tile just as I had called MJ. It was decided that she gets the tile that she called and I couldn’t declare MJ. I accepted the call reluctantly. As it turned out the player who was again in turn to pick, thru the red anyway and I called MJ. What I’m wondering is, should I have been allowed to declare MJ as a self pick. Who was correct, the player who called for the tile almost at the same time that I said MJ or should I have been allowed to keep the tile and call MJ.
Thank you
Hedy G
Sent from my iPad
Hi, Hedy! Let me lay this out chronologically:
1. Player 1 threw 6B.
2. You picked from the wall and observed that the picked tile was your mahj tile.
3. Simultaneously, you said "mahj" and player 3 said "call."
3. Or then again, you said in your last sentence that player 3's call was "almost at the same time," so I honestly don't know if the two verbalizations really were simultaneous.
This conflicting situation is not covered by FAQ 19-H, FAQ 19-I, or FAQ 19-CL, but in my opinion, assuming that the two calls were spoken simultaneously, there should not have been any question as to which play should take precedence. The mahj call should have taken precedence, in my opinion.
Bear with me here...
FAQ 19-CL says, "if a call for a discard is spoken at the exact precise instant that the next-in-turn racks her picked tile from the wall (or if nobody can tell which came first), the caller gets the tile." The source of that ruling is a letter from the NMJL to Donna E on October 25, 2016 (there's a picture of the letter in FAQ 19).
But that ruling doesn't take into account the possibility that the picker has mah-jongg. There is a general principle that mah-jongg claims outweigh other claims. This principle is behind exceptions to other rules. I wrote about that in my reply to Debbie Barnett on Monday, March 27, 2023, titled "Many opinions on this scenario, part 2" (below).
Since Donna's letter only covers claims for the same thing, and doesn't take a mahj claim into account, I hold that the mahj claim should have taken precedence in your case.
You said "mahj" out loud, so that anybody could hear it. That means that if you accede to another player, and that player exposes and discards a tile other than your mahj tile (I'm not certain from your description that this is what happened), the next player after the caller is going to pick your mahj tile, and should know that it is your mahj tile and therefore shouldn't discard it. In other words, one person at the table will know your secret, and most probably would never throw your tile. That's part of the reason why your verbal claim of mahj should have been honored when you made it.
But, this is all just my opinion. You can only get an official ruling on this from the League, since this exact question has not been answered previously in writing, to the best of my knowledge.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 3, 2023
Donations appreciated
Oops, wrong tile, part 6
On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 03:14:25 PM EDT, Susan D wrote:
Re: Correcting Mistakes
Tom, I will certainly send you copies of the letters. As far as adding to or taking away from an exposure before discarding, I was under the impression that was regarding changing a kong to a pung, a pung to a kong, etc; not actions such as swapping a 5 Bam for a 6 Bam. Susan
Hi, Susan.
Re your scenario #2, read the rule: it only says, "A player may add to or take away from the exposure." It doesn't say "may add jokers to or take away jokers from."
I look forward to seeing those letters.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 2, 2023
Donations appreciated
Oops, wrong tile, part 5
On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 12:12:59 PM EDT, Susan D wrote:
Correcting Mistakes
Several players in my community call me with questions regarding rules, so I strive to be accurate. I don't hesitate to write the NMJL with questions when I am not sure about an answer. I recently wrote two letters to the NMJL regarding correcting mistakes and received two conflicting responses. In the first letter I did not include the words "before discarding", but I don't think including the words really changes the ruling, so I am thoroughly confused.
Scenario #1: A player calls for a 5 Bam. The player exposes two 5 Bams from her hand, then picks up a 6 bam from the table and places it on her rack with the 5 Bams to make an exposure. Does the player have a dead hand or can she correct her mistake by returning the 6 Bam to the table and picking up the 5 Bam that was discarded?
Scenario #2 a player calls for a 5 Bam. The player exposes a 6 Bam and a Joker from his hand, then picks up a 5 Bam from the table to make an exposure. Does the player have a dead hand or can he correct his mistake by returning the 6 Bam to his hand and taking a 5 Bam from his hand and making a valid exposure?
In these two scenarios I assumed the person at the NMJL knew I meant 'BEFORE DISCARDING". I guess I shouldn't assume.
In both scenarios, the answer was that the hands were dead, and the mistakes could not be corrected.
Players wanted more clarification and asked that I write another letter and include the words "BEFORE DISCARDING".
The NMJL"s answer was very confusing. It stated that the answers remained constant. Then, they proceeded to say just the opposite; that the mistakes could be corrected.
I have ALWAYS thought that once a tile was taken from the table and placed on a player's rack, it could not be returned. I thought the same held true when exposing from your hand.
Susan D
Hi, Susan!
Apparently, our previous discussion in April ("Oops, wrong tile") isn't yet over.
There were four parts to our previous discussion, all on Thursday, April 13.
Part 1, 12:38: I answered incorrectly about scenario #1. Oops!
Part 2, 2:35: I corrected my answer about scenario #1. The player may not correct the error: putting the wrong tile from the discard floor atop the rack is not rescindable.
Part 3, 4:00: You asked if there were never any exceptions. I said "never, EXCEPT if another person wanted the named discard for mah-jongg." (Possibly a disconnect with the actual question.)
Part 4, 5:20: Debbie Barnett corrected the answer I gave in part 1 (confirming what I wrote in part 2).
Scenario #1 is not correctable. The proof:
2007 newsletter. Ruth Unger wrote: "PLAYER CANNOT DECIDE THAT SHE DID NOT WANT THE TILE SHE CALLED FOR EXPOSURE[,] PUT THE DISCARD BACK ON THE TABLE AND THE OTHER TILES INTO HER RACK...A CALL FOR A TILE IS JUST LIKE A PICK FROM THE WALL, ONCE TAKEN...IT CANNOT BE PUT BACK."
That's my source for FAQ 19-AM.2:
...once you have either placed the taken discard atop the rack or exposed tiles from your hand, you have committed to making the play (then you have crossed the line, and you may not backtrack - it's too late)."
Scenario #2 IS a correctable act. The proof:
MJME p. 15 says: "A player may add to or take away from the exposure during this turn, as long as player has not discarded." This was also stated in the 2009 newsletter. Ruth Unger wrote: "You may add to the exposure or take away from the exposure AS LONG AS YOU HAVE NOT DISCARDED AS YET. Once you discard, you are committed to that exposure."
Those are my sources for FAQ 19-AF.
I'm glad you sent your questions in writing to the League. But I'm confused by your email today. You said:
In both scenarios, the answer was that the hands were dead, and the mistakes could not be corrected.
Then you said:
The NMJL"s answer was very confusing. It stated that the answers remained constant. Then, they proceeded to say just the opposite; that the mistakes could be corrected.
Are you saying that in one letter, the answer was that both mistakes were not correctable, and then the second letter said the opposite? Did you cite the first response in your second letter? Can you send me pictures of all four letters (your sent questions, and the replies you got back)? Can you send copies of all four letters back to the League and ask for a third response?
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 2, 2023
Donations appreciated
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